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 Getting her setup (currently 1179 views) |
| Avar |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 7:05:01am |
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I thought i'd start a new thread instead of hijacking and making a mess of the sticky 
Don and Ricou, the reason i'm looking for a newer updated file is that the one i've tried to use is the original one that came with the ecu and it doesn't appear to have the temp sensor calibration even close. It's possible i'm doing something wrong but if i try to get the ecu to learn the current temps of air and water just before i start the car it spikes to the top of the graph.
I started the tuning process last night and this is how it went.
I flashed the ecu with 1.13 with success.
I fitted the TPS and wired that in, unfortunately i'm only getting a 0% or 100% reading from it in wari, i'm assuming i've got the wiring incorrect. I'm using the fly lead from the sensor and have black as GND white as TPS and red as 5v. I'll check again tonight to make sure i've got the wires correct.
I then checked the calibration of the temp sensor and as i said when i tried to learn 20 degrees which was the current air temp and water temp at that time i clicked on the temp and it spiked upto the top of the graph, making me think that the preset figures are incorrect.
Also I calibrated the LC-1 AFR and that worked perfectly and is setup correctly in wari.
The MAP sensor i'm finding hard to calibrate, i've selected the 3 bar option and it has given me the base settings, i've got the same one as they sell on their website, would these values be ok for that device?
I know this should be easy but i think last night i just couldn't get my brain in gear, i even fell asleep twice in the passenger seat with PC on lap which can't help, i'll give it another go after work tonight but if someone could send me an upto date ecu file with all the transient throttle settings tweaked etc it's would give me a head start. |
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| Ricou |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 11:05:04am |
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I'm not sure about how to calibrate the sensors... have you tried with one of the files I sent ? They almost all use the same values for temp sensor and it seems to work very well for me.
About the transient throttle, I can't help you as I haven't fitted yet the analog TPS and it looks like it's needed for setting it well. |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 4:31:04pm |
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Have you sent some files to me? i don't remember receiving any  |
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| Andy |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 5:39:39pm |
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| Ricou |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 7:05:44pm |
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Thank God someone is actually reading what I'm writing  |
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| Andy |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 7:07:34pm |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 7:20:55pm |
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 sorry wood for trees moment
I've tried all maps and settings, i've got the TPS reading correct, same i think for the MAP although i'm not sure how i can test this, but the car wont fire up, there's plenty of fuel and the occasional spark but thats it |
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| fxdlidon |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 8:13:19pm |
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yes I am reading this - just had nothing to contribute till now
It sounds to me like a 'Cranking Fuel' issue, the settings in the original file are fine for the wamer climes down south but don't seem to work too well back here. I'd guess it's fuelling far too rich - try downloading my last file and using the settings in there, they wont be right for you, especially with the extra fuel pressure, but it might at least give you a starting point.
The MAP shouldn't stop the engine from starting unless it's miles out, it should be reading near 100 in the guages window when the engines not running.
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| fxdlidon |
Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 8:25:30pm
 Attachment: cranking_fuel.jpg - 74.86 KB (925 views) |
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| Just took a screen dump of the page. |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 9:22:15pm |
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Brilliant, cheers.
Well i got some good news, she finally runs all beit a bit lumpy, but i thought that progress and a good time to stop for the night.
The problem was rather simple, the numpty that did the wiring. I'd cut the GND feed to the temp sensors to wire in the TPS and didn't bother to solder it back on also one wire in my loom which happened to be the TPS 5v wire was slightly diefferent at each end of the loom ergo not the same wire, so i've temporarily soldered and connected everything up and with a bit of throttle everything started fine.
It idles at about 850 or rather tries to, so i need to increase that and is running very rich.
So here's the next couple of questions, the first thing i want to do now is check the cam timing is exactly the same as what the ECU thinks, whats the best way to do this?
And tuning mode i need to switch over to the new fuel pressure regulator which is simple, but once i've done that i want to get it fine tuning, whats the best / safest way to get this process under way?
Cheers.
By the way thanks Ricou your collection of files was perfect i ended up using the 3BMAP (posted by grant i think) as a base and have just modded that, but that collection of files was just what i needed. |
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Reply: 9 - 49 |
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| Ricou |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 6th, 2010, 9:56:31pm |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 12:17:46am |
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I spent a few hours working on tuning tonight and the cars getting better and better. I transfered Don's recent maps into my ecu, altered the cranking fuel amounts, setup the fast tune parameters and sat in the car for an hour letting it sort out the idle and non load fueling. The trace feeature is damn handy on the main map page.
I then refined the learning aettings and did some loaded tests, having the lights on full, heater upto max and with fan coming on occasionally and it learnt a bit more.
I then thought i'd take her out for a bit of serious tuning, i've got an industrial est behind me so i found a nice section of unused road, did a slow run with the handbrake on full, then quite a few runs with left foot on brake and keeping the turbo boost at high amounts and revs at a nice and gradual increase. The fueling is far from perfect but its got probably half the map altered to something half decent, so realy quite pleased with myself. When i pulled back up at my work area i noticed that the car now idles perfectly although it not at what its meant to be at but more like 1165, the car doesn't try to stall when the fan comes on which is nice however when i press my A/C button the idle hunts quite badly which i need to look at but for now not a bad day. |
Last modified Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 12:20:03am by Avar |
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| fxdlidon |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 2:02:06pm |
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Sounding good!
Mine idles at around 1100/1150, if I have it any lower it dies sometimes when I pull up at lights so I've just left it like that.
When you find a cure for the A/C and hunting isssue let me know - mine does it too and I've never got round to finding the cure |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 4:17:45pm |
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Do you still have the AC connected? I dont and have assumed that although the ecu see's that there's a calling for it becuasethere's no load it tries to pull the revs bck down to a sensible idle. I really only use the button as a 500 rev advance when at lights for speedy gettaways without the risk of stalling and for when i'm teaching my girlfriend to drive as it's very hard to stall the car when on.
I also can't get my head arround the other idle increase options, for e.g. if i put the extra electrical load effort upto about 1000 and then turn all the lights and other gadgets on i don't see an increase in revs it drops and then tries to settle. |
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| fxdlidon |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 5:40:25pm |
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I'm driving round in a greenhouse! - I need the aircon connected
I think, rather than increasing the revs, the ecu trys to increase the effort the engine is doing to maintain the revs at the required level |
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| Ricou |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 6:24:50pm |
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For the electrical load effort, it's not working on mine either, but it seems it's because there's no "electrical load" signal coming to the ECU when I put lights on but there's one when I switch ventilation on.
When I see how many wires from the original loom aren't forwarded to the Adaptronic, I'm thinking maybe the "light electrical load" is one of them.
I didn't took the time to look into it though, as mine idles fine with lights on. |
Last modified Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 6:28:55pm by Ricou |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 8:44:20pm |
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But will it idle fine in the winter with heater, heated windscreen and full beam on? I've still got to try the rear windscreen.
I have a couple of things i need to sort out but i'm not sure where i'd look or approach it, firstly the car still dislikes starting from cold and i end up having to jump start it cause it runs the battery down while turning over also there's still a slight hesitation when just blipping the throttle would this be due to an imperfect map of could there be a setting else where i need to tweak.
I'm sure the starting is too rich still, would lowering the cranking table down a bit more help.
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I think, rather than increasing the revs, the ecu trys to increase the effort the engine is doing to maintain the revs at the required level
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Does it not say RPM next to the boxes though, i think thats why i've allways thought it just upped the revs that given amount. |
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| fxdlidon |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 8:53:15pm |
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Quoted from Avar, posted Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 8:44:20pm at here |
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I'm sure the starting is too rich still, would lowering the cranking table down a bit more help.
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yeps, but that's what I've been trying to achieve with mine for the last 18 months. It's easy enough when the engine's warm but when it's cold, especialy in the cold of winter, you only get one chance a day to try out new settings - it's takig a while... |
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| Ricou |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 9:06:54pm |
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Ah, you've got the blipping throttle hesitation too, even with the analog tps... maybe it's now a matter of setting up the transient throttle in Wari, which isn't an easy task. By the way, adaptronic staff said MAP prediction is better than transient throttle, but it requires some logging and analysis to be set up.
About your cold starting issues: I found out I required a lot more fuel than in the base file to cold start.
To find out if it's your case, here's what you can try:
In Correction tab, transient throttle, Asynch Accel. Pump, set the value for 0 RPM to something like 40 (4ms). As a result, you can now blip the throttle (ignition on, engine off) before starting to inject some fuel and see if it starts more easily.
This worked well for me, but as you've got an analog tps and this is directly related to tps position, you should check in live gauge tab (F2) that it's actually injecting fuel when you move the throttle with engine off. |
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| fxdlidon |
Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 9:28:41pm
Attachment: overrun_cells.jpg - 134.25 KB (862 views) |
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The bigest problem I've found running in cold weather (with everything turned on) is these cells here (marked in orange). As you come off the throttle and pull up at the lights these are the ones the fuel map goes through. In tuning mode the ecu tends to weaken these down and the result is, by the time you've pulled up, the engine has run out of fuel!
Once you get them right always 'mark them as tuned' and dont let the adaptronic mess with them. |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 9:29:27pm |
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I'll the async thingy a go, but as i said, i think its getting too much fuel, the car smells very rich when it finally starts and i have to have the throttle fully open to get it too fire which makes me think it needs lots of air to get it to fire up.
If i get a chance i'll try to start it in the morning and then can give it another go in the evening when i get back from work. I really need to get somewhere close tomorrow as i've got the london run on saturday and have no way of jumo starting her when there. |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 9:34:17pm |
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| One other thing, i was trying to calculate the maximum amount of time the injectors can stay open at high revs. Am i right in thinking that 13ms at 8,250 revs is the longest they can stay open. I want to ensure i'm not hitting max duty and leaning it out when the engine is singing. |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 9:35:31pm |
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Quoted from fxdlidon, posted Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 9:28:41pm at here |
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Once you get them right always 'mark them as tuned' and dont let the adaptronic mess with them.
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I'll keep that in mind. |
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| Ricou |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 9:44:34pm |
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Kei, in case you're sure you have too much fuel on cold starts, if you really need the car to start with a temporary solution, you could lower a lot your crankin fuel table and use the transient throttle trick to inject fuel manually... might work better than jump starting it.
By the way, from what file did you take your cranking fuel table ?
And do you know if your fuel pressure regulator changes fuel pressure @ cranking / idle ?
Because if it doesn't, you should try my cranking fuel table, we're both on stock injectors.
Don> You mean when engine is cold, it enriches the mixture because of water temp while trying to adjust these cells to 14-15 AFR so it leans them out ?
If it's the case, which seems odd (soI might be missing the point), you could raise the "minimum water temp" in closed loop and adaptative mode settings. |
Last modified Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 9:51:48pm by Ricou |
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| fxdlidon |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 9:51:11pm |
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| The most mine hits is 13.444 at 5500 and 1.5 bar. The injectors are larger than yours but you've got more fuel pressure - I'll let you do the sums |
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| Ricou |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 9:52:46pm |
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| I edited my previous post Don, I just added something for ya. |
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| fxdlidon |
| Posted on: Thursday, July 8th, 2010, 10:04:01pm |
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Ricou - not when the engine's cold - normal driving. It just seems to lean them out so much that when the car pulls up it just doesn't have enough fuel to keep going. It only happens in the winter when the electrics are heavily loaded (lights, blower, rear screen...)
I've been meaning to wire in an 'electrical load' for the lights and the rear scren but haven't got round to it yet. I'll do it before next winter and see if it helps. |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Friday, July 9th, 2010, 5:46:17am |
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Ricou the cranking fuel table i used is the one above.
Re maximum duty cycles of the injectors, i assume that as it fine tunes the map it will start pulling the figures down a bit more.
Just so someone can confirm i've got the calc correct here's how i did it.
1000
----------------- = absolute max duty cycle at given RPM
(RPM / 60) / 2
Does this make sense? I've assumed the injectors only open every 2nd rotation hence the 2. The result looks OK as if you use 8000 for example the total is 14.9 which is very similar to a couple of the figures in the map table. |
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| Ricou |
| Posted on: Friday, July 9th, 2010, 12:55:41pm |
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Kei, your formula seems ok but it gives absolute max injector opening time at given RPM, not duty cycle.
It seems ok because I've found on another forum how to calculate injectors duty cycle at given RPM and opening time:
T = Time for 2 crankshaft rotation : T= 2x60x1000/RPM (in ms).
Duty cycle = Injectors opening time / T
For example, at 6000 RPM and 183kpa, injectors opening time = 13.4ms
T = 2x60x1000/6000 = 20ms
Duty cycle = 13.4/20 = 0.67 = 67%
About the cranking fuel table, you took Don's but if I'm correct he is on bigger injectors...
Anyway, if you have time, all I can say is try mine and see how it goes.
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Last modified Friday, July 9th, 2010, 12:57:45pm by Ricou |
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| grant4561 |
| Posted on: Saturday, July 10th, 2010, 11:14:47am |
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Sorry guy's I have been out the bush camping/fishing for the last 4 days (didnt catch a bloody thing).
The Air Cond/idle load thing is a problem which I only noticed about a month ago but is fairly easy to sort.
When you are calibrating the temperature sensors you will get odd spikes because of electrical interference, you simply have to hit the calibrate button again, but dont worry about the spikes as and when you have gone through the range just manualy even out the graph. Check it next time you warm the cam up and you may have to tweak the graph a bit and your done.
As above I have been away and will post up a couple more answers tomorrow when I get some more time.
I havent had a chance to read the thread completey yet as I have been away and just doing a quick check tonight to try and catch up a bit on things.
Cheers
Grant |
Last modified Saturday, July 10th, 2010, 11:19:21am by grant4561 |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Monday, July 12th, 2010, 9:35:53pm |
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This cold start issue is becoming a pain, i've tried out Ricou's and Don's cranking table to no availe, i've even tried settings between the two which haven't worked, i have to jump start the car off another vehicle everytime to start it from cold, has anyone any ideas?
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Last modified Monday, July 12th, 2010, 9:51:13pm by Avar |
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| fxdlidon |
| Posted on: Monday, July 12th, 2010, 10:03:49pm |
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What plugs are you using? I find I have to switch from iridiums to normal in the winter.
Starting mine I have to turn it on, wait for the fuel pressure to build then turn the engine over without touching the throttle at all - if it doesn't fire turn off, turn on again, wait for the fuel pressure to build and try again... and again... and again sometimes. If it doesn't fire on the first couple of turns then it's going to be a pig! If it is firing but not catching properly then it's time to start playing with the 'post crank enrichment', short and long.
Excel will draw nice graphs, I just cant remember how to persuade it to do it. I tink it's just a matter of setting one column of data to be the x axis and another column of data to be the y. I'll knock up a template in work tomorrow and send it you. |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Monday, July 12th, 2010, 10:20:21pm |
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I've just got rid of the the no. 7 iridiums James keeps putting in and replaced them for a set of No.8 standards.
I've entered in the post crank settings from ricou's files, hopefully they might work tomorrow when i give it another cold start, trouble is i aint a clue what they all mean
I modified my last post and got rid of the excel question, i'm just approximating them at the mo from the adptonic AFR page but any extra detail you can send me would be gratefully appreciated. I just can't belive its that hard to plot a simple chart in excel without it trying to do something clever.
Something i cant understand when reading the logs and comparing them to ideal AFR and the map is that under 62KPa optimum AFR is the same throughout the rev range, so why does the ecu have different figures in every box except at 0KPa?
I think i've actually found my limit with this stuff, i used to consider myself quite bright yet this all make me feel like a right dunce |
Last modified Monday, July 12th, 2010, 10:22:58pm by Avar |
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| grant4561 |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 13th, 2010, 12:02:00am |
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The Air Conditioning idle problem is actually a problem with the Electrical Load 2 input trigger to the ECU but is easy to fix.
Instead of posting the fix here I have put it under a new thread for future reference.
Kei,
If you find you are still having problems it is usually some simple settings and its best to sort one thing at a time instead of making many changes as it can be easy to get lost.
Plugs, I have to run iridium 8's all the time.
Email me your ecu file and let me know what version of WARI you are using so I can have a look if you want. |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 13th, 2010, 7:11:21am |
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Cheers for the offer, ecu file sent
Wari version is V1.13 to suit firmware V1.0Q
As mentioned in the mail, i'm starting to worry about exhaust gas temps too as my LC-1 sensor has gone into fault mode twice now giving a sensor too hot >1700f code. Too much running at those temps will probably give me turbine and piston failiure which i want to avoid. |
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| fxdlidon |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 13th, 2010, 10:22:16am |
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Quoted from Avar, posted Monday, July 12th, 2010, 10:20:21pm at here |
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Something i cant understand when reading the logs and comparing them to ideal AFR and the map is that under 62KPa optimum AFR is the same throughout the rev range, so why does the ecu have different figures in every box except at 0KPa?
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Each cell is a different pressure/rpm combination. To maintain the AFR as the rpm increases you need more fuel to compenste for the extra air being drawn in. It's the same with the pressure, as this increases you need more fuel to maintain a steady AFR.
I think that makes sense
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| Ricou |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 13th, 2010, 1:15:10pm |
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Kei, where did you put that LC-1 ?
I plan to install it after the catalyst, just at the beggining of the center exhaust pipe, to avoid it getting too hot and lasting only a few months.
Don> I was thinking like you before but I then realized that injector opening time shouldn't increase with RPM. You're right about the fact that more air in drawn into the engine as RPM increases, but injectors are opening more too because they fire every 2 crank turns... so I think variations of injection times with RPM are related to engine efficiency. |
Last modified Tuesday, July 13th, 2010, 1:27:12pm by Ricou |
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| fxdlidon |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 13th, 2010, 1:50:32pm |
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| ^ You're right Ricou, it must be due to engine efficiency because they tail off again at higher rpm's. I think I'm right about the manifold pressure though, the higher the pressure the more fuel it would need to maintain the AFR. |
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| Avar |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 13th, 2010, 4:27:35pm |
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Quoted from Ricou, posted Tuesday, July 13th, 2010, 1:15:10pm at here |
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Kei, where did you put that LC-1 ?
I plan to install it after the catalyst, just at the beggining of the center exhaust pipe, to avoid it getting too hot and lasting only a few months.
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I have it fitted where the original lambda sensor goes, it should be able to take standard heat according to the manual it just goes into fualt at above 1700f.
I've read quite a bit in the past few days about EGT and 1600f is a good safe maximum to hit occassionally anything more and i think i read somewhere that your betting against a stacked deck and before long your gonna lose something quite expensive, a piston for example or worse still a turbo. |
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| Ricou |
| Posted on: Tuesday, July 13th, 2010, 8:42:13pm |
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You're right about the temps I think, 800 - 900°C is a limit you shouldn't be reaching if you don't want to kill something under the bonnet.
I think you installed your LC-1 too close to your engine, but anyway it means something may be wrong with your EGT. Usually, high EGT means you're running too lean. |
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Cappuccino Owners Club › Specific Discussion Boards › Adaptronic ECU › Getting her setup (Moderators: )
