Finally started a project today that I've been meaning to do for a while.


Can you guess what it is yet?






















JBL GTO327 2 Ohm speakers wired in series to produce 4 Ohm left and right stereo speakers in each headrest

196 strands OFC speaker wire

Gold plated speaker terminals

Should be good! Will you be wiring them up so they're in stereo for each person?

“ Quoted Text ” 2 Ohm speakers wired in series to produce 4 Ohm left and right stereo speakers in each headrest

Yes indeedy! (bigsmile)

Reckon they would damage your head should you (God forbid) ever be in a situation where the headrests are doing their job of stopping your head being flung back too far? If so, the easiest way to solve the problem is always wear a racing helmet ;)

My head is nowhere near where they are mounted ;)  You would have to be very short in the body to have your head contacting the headrest where they are.  They are also mounted inside the foam and will have an extra piece of sticky back foam covering the entire front face (excluding a cut out for the speaker of course!) of the headrest.

They look good! :)

Cheers capgun (bigsmile)

The only tell tale sign they are there will be the holes in the headrest cover - oh and the sound of course lol

Nice job Andy. So what are you going to do for the rest of the week  ;D

Bit more of this lol

You could write your name in the headrests with the hole punch, lol.
Will the holes be like the capposport ones or a custom design?

                  
                  .
          .       .      .
             .    .   .
       .   .   .  .  .  .   .
             .    .    .
          .       .      .
                  .

lol

I think it will be a standard pattern.

Sounds good, at least you can hide the wires pretty easily too, they won't be seen with the small amount of space behind the seats...

I intend running them down through the seat itself ;)

Even better :) Next step is to use your 'other' headrest set and put an 8" sub in each of them, lol!

Finally finished the install off and I have to say the speakers sound fantastic! (bigsmile)  At the moment it is a stealth install as I haven't punched any holes in the headrest covers yet. The sound is like I say fantastic still and not at all muffled.  I'm tempted not to as it would be quite amusing watching people trying to figure out where the music is coming from! 

Can any audiophiles tell me how much of a difference I could expect by putting  holes in the covers?

Yes: it will create small circular gaps in the material.

Hope this helps  ;D

Have you got any other similar speakers, and any similar material?  At least then you could rig up a substitute setup, try it with and without holes: at least then you don't risk the original material.

The other thing: if you punch holes in the material, is it black consistantly all of the way through: be a bit of a shame if the fabric showed white in the holes, for example.

The fabric is white on the inside but a quick run round with a black felt tip pen would sort that. I could take the cover of one headrest and see how much of a difference that actually makes and judge from that whether it's worth it.

That's true: it would have to sound completely different to warrant the holes I suppose, as even if you peppered the material, you probably could open up much more than 30% of the material?

Use some speaker mesh fabric (almost always comes in black as I found out when trying to get silver to make my KEFs match the rest of the room *cough*) on the inside to hide the foam being seen through holes.
I think places like Maplins do it on the roll  ;)  cheap enough - very cheap as you won't actually need much.

Be careful what you use to bond the mesh to the inside of the covers.
Rubber glue might get a little sticky when hot, and conversely Superglue might get rather brittle when either too hot (dries out) or too cold.

Maybe better to fit the mesh over the whole headrest first like a stocking, then put the original cover over afterwards?
It's usually quite stretchy so you should be able to make it a good snug fit.

Adding the holes should make the sound clearer, especially at the high end of the spectrum.

The foam of the headrest is actually already covered in a sheet of black foam but I forgot to take a picture of that bit!  I'd already decided that if I was going to put holes in the headrest cover I would but some black mesh behind.  Decisions, decisions.

If there's a thin black foam between the speakers and the outer cover this should should be fine, but a speaker mesh might reduce wear and tear on this thin black foam.

The stick on black foam isn't all that thin and has a hole where the speakers are. If I do decide to punch holes in the cover the mesh will still be needed to hide the speakers.

The speaker cloth will tone down some of the high frequencies that the tweeters produce but sometimes that is an advantage because some tweeters can be harsh to begin with... That's one of the things people do to tweets if they are in factory locations (corners of the dash - upper footwells etc).  I think do what Barry said and try the speakers with a scrap of vinyl with the holes punched too so you can tell the difference. The midrange and high frequencies would be affected without any holes but bass shouldn't be affected much :)

do you actually get a true stereo image with the speakers so close together???

^ what about earphones, lol!

“ Quoted from Olyfan, posted Monday, April 9th, 2007, 9:57:11am at here ” do you actually get a true stereo image with the speakers so close together???

Well if you don't it does a very good impression of it. (bigsmile)

Hey now thats a clever idea!!!

i love this site... you guys give me so many excellent ideas!!!

its just finding things ickle enough..

Andy what speaker did you use.. id imagin they'd have the be pretty shallow...

your brave choppin up your leather seats!!!! REALLY brave lol I wouldnt!! Is is not unconfy on the back of your head??

They are JBL GTO327 2 Ohm speakers wired in series to produce 4 Ohm.  They are listed as having a mounting depth of 37mm on the box but that doesn't include the plastic rim which is also under the foam.  They aren't uncomfy on the back of the head at all.  Couple of reasons for that. My head doesn't contact the headrest during driving and even if it did it would contact the top part of it and not the bottom part where the speakers actually are.

As for being brave chopping up the headrests - it's always slightly less disconcerting when you have another set! ;)



I've also decided that I will have to put the holes in the covers.  The sound is great when the roof is on but doesn't sound quite right when the roof is off.  Hopefully the holes will help this.  Could be that I need to upgrade the front speakers again though.

haha i dont have another set if i muff mine up!!!!

Doors or kick panels are the place for 'optimum' sound in most cars :)

It wasn't an easy job putting two speakers into the one headrest and I can see why people have only fitted one per headrest before lol.  Getting the speakers into the headrests wasn't too bad but wiring it all up caused me a few headaches trying to remember which wire was which and where it was meant to be going!  If you did make a mistake all you would need to do is glue the sponge back in. Nobody would ever know ;)

hehe defo need to dort my sound system out.. though mine was clever till i started lookin at what other have done!!!

“ Quoted from capgun, posted Monday, April 16th, 2007, 6:22:38pm at here ” Doors or kick panels are the place for 'optimum' sound in most cars :)

Not sure about that.  Kick panel is too low isn't it and wouldn't they ideally need to be high up on the door which wouldn't be a great place for pods in the Capp?

No, not always. If you go to a car audio show - or look on the net you'll see that 90percent or more of cars have them in those positions :)

It gets really technical with frequencies, distance to ear, passive/active systems, crossover points and the rest of it. I have my focals in the kick panels (with sound deadening behind) & can turn it up to as loud as I can bear without a hint of distortion. The sound sounds like it's coming directly in front of me - I have my tweeters on top of the dash too though. Sub is behind the front seats because most sub frequencies are non-directional (can't really pick where the sound originates).

Excellent!  (bigsmile)


I need to do some work on my fronts as they rattle the wings at the mo.  I will sound deaden behind them first and if they still aren't doing it for me I will replace them.  Which focals have you got in there? Any clearance problems?

I havbe the 165's (polyglass). I had to make some mdf spacers (actually I used plywood!) to space them out for magnet clearance. It's definately worth spending the money on 'dynamat extreme' I did two layers of it (it's about 2mm thick and sticks on like tape). The difference is HUGE! 
It's a bit of a gamble buying the cheap sound deadening - adhesion, effectiveness etc. Dynamatt always seems to be fine no-matter who you talk to! lol
If you mount the tweeters in the factory locations in the dash they sound great :) I have the switch on the crossovers set to minus one to tone them down a touch. I can't really fault them at all - crystal clear with the nakamichi deck I'm using now and I don't have to turn the bass down on every second track like I used to to stop the panels vibrating or humming intermittantly! :D

The higher the frequency of the sound, the greater the directional emphasis and so the better the stereo imagery.
Bass bins practically have no direction (but some people argue otherwise  ;)  ), but HFs are highly directional.

Most speakers lye somewhere inbetween, or more to the point actually produce sound inbetween these extremes.
The tweeters on the dash will give most direction : this is what you hear "The sound sounds like it's coming directly in front of me", Capgun. It's not the ones in the door well you're hearing directionally so much as the tweeters in the dash.

My tweeters have an excellant stereo imagery, far better than any stock stereo system I've had before.
I also have my treble turned down to reduce their harshness a little as well, but this is to be expected if like most car tweeters they are piezos rather than the proper HiFi tweeters I'm used to.
Unfortunately the stock stereo itself ain't so hot.

Most speakers are in the footwells or bottoms of the doors so they're out the way.
That's it.
They're NOT there for sonic clarity, it's convenience, oh that and there's few other places to stuff em.
Manufacturers therefore have altered their designs to maxmise their products to give better results from this estranged positioning compared to HiFi speaker setups which are distinctly directional in orientation.

You don't think that sometimes speakers need a certain volume of air behind them - hence mounting them in the doors? :) I admit there really isn't that many other places to put midranges or woofers though - especially if they are 3way splits. I knew why I heard the sound coming in front of me, lol! ;)

“ Quoted from capgun, posted Tuesday, April 17th, 2007, 3:27:46am at here ” You don't think that sometimes speakers need a certain volume of air behind them

You're quite right they do, well certainly the mid and bass range drivers need this.
Bass-reflex and bass-porting take advantage of this by extending their area, or really it's actually a trick about reducing internal pressure at higher volumes and so allowing a truer bass-line at higher volumes, otherwise the internal pressure will cause the driver to slow down and reduce its' travell.
Fluting of the aperture can also affect the sound quality.
Density and other properties of the case also have a noticable effect.
There are books on the subject, but I've never read much of them as I tend to sort of erhm fall asleep before it get s to the interesting bits.

Some speakers (like from a guy on eBay who specialises in Wharfedales that I've used before) come with techy specs to help you built a suitably sized enclosure.

As an experiment I bought some small 4.5"'s off him to replace some Akai's and the sound difference was amazing, but they do sound better if housed in denser boxes rather than the plasy cases they're in now (as I've tried them) - might be an idea for me to open them up again and add a little of this dynomatt stuff you lot are on about (btw I noticed Jay left plenty lining my car  :)  ). These are now in the garden (that's why they're in plastic cases - in case I forget to bring them in of an evening, lol) by what will be the patio-sort-of, though I was thinking of also getting some of his 4Ohm/6.5"'s off him as well just to help with that big double bass line when I'm mellowing to some Jazz during the summer.

Also, have you noticed how some speakers sound different in an 'enclosed' car than with the windows open or roof off?
With an enclosed system there's far more chance of standing waves and high air compression and distortion - some take advantage of this, to a point.
With an open system it's lighter as there's less reflection and less containment of the bass, which in itself could lead to a distorted sound -strange but true, as we need reflections to hear properly.

Here's one for you .
Anyone here seen the old (70's?) training films I've seen re:sub-bass in cars?
Basically sub-bass harmonics (in an enclosed system) <20Hz can induce sleep at the wheel, btw, which is one reason why most car bass units are designed not to go below 20Hz, and certainly not below 15/10Hz, which is more where the issues lie.
Most car manufacturer systems will tail-off well before they get close 20Hz, usually maybe starting 80>50Hz even of they claim to get that low, or lower there's little left at <30Hz frequencies.

Yeah I've heard about the bass-sleep thing before, I find too much heat in the car tends to make me sleepy too (had to have the window down a bit to stay awake on a long 10hr drive a few weeks ago!). I tend to be very cautious of ebay when looking at speakers, there's (not in your case) a lot of fake/imitation stuff out there for dynaudio, focal and a few other high end brands that gets sold cheaply and people buy it and come online and say 'I don't know why ppl go on about *brand*, they are crap' and then everyone asks where they bought them from and tell him/her why! I haven't seen wharfedales for car audio yet but that might be nice if they are released :)

Soon as I sort out whatever is wrong with my capp's engine I can keep toying with my audio! I like your compartment idea for the back - I have my carpeted fiberglass sub enclosure there otherwise I could make one :)

I think the ones he has are older ones as most modern Wharfedale stuff is lets be honest cheap cr@p compared to the proper stuff they did 10/20years ago.
The ones I got ain't brill, but they are designed for larger heavier cabs, and tyhis does help.
Most Wharfedale stuff now is no more a decent make than Alba or Ministry of sh*te.

The ones I got are sold as HiFi speakers but most are 4Ohms as single drive units for the self-build market, but he does recommend them for the car, though I've not tried them, yet (I do have one spare somewhere?)
He does various sizes(4"/4.5"upwards + tweeters), mixed boxes, also what I would call starter packs (Pairs of mid+tweeter or mid+bass+tweeters), special orders, etc..
Many you pay more in p&p due to the weight with the smaller sets.

I do miss my old Wharfedales they were nice speakers, but not as nice as my 1980's KEFs, but a d@mn site easier to fit in a room!

As for the shelf compartment the idea would be to include a sub-driver and maybe the sub-amp/crossover in the middle section, ported around/over the rear window release catch rather than an open 'on show' speaker like a lot use.
The piccies I made don't do it justice as I just couldn't get it look like the 3D shape I wanted.
Probably means replacing the middle section of the existing shelf, but hey, it'd be worth it I think.
Not that this idea will come to fruitition due to current lack of funds, and it's really a winter project whilst the car is tucked away in the garage to avoid needless and repeated stripping/reassembling.
If it passes the MOT without any welding or nasty stuff then I might give it a serious try  ;)  .

Just tell them it's standard, lol!

And to save anymore speculation about mine here's the Tweeters.
Factory fit I think?
I wonder if that capacitor/resistor is there because they are tweeters and need protection, or because they are Piezos and need toning down?

Here's the main speakers.
Pioneers of some variety, not sure what model.

Aren't these dual-concentrics?
Strange thing to put in a car with dedicated tweeters.
That could account for some of the sound problems I get.

BTW had it running some Led Zepp today and those guitar rifts sound awesome out of those dash mounted tweeters!

Strewth.... You don't need a horn then !!

The top clarion ones are the factory tweeters (silk dome). They aren't bad but not high-end. The other 'two way' 6 inches are something that the previous owner has put in.  If you listen to and buy some good component speakers (splits) then you'll be a lot more amazed! :)

Looking at the two ways, if you get panel vibration it's more than likely around the back edge of the speaker cage/basket where it meets the inner panel. If you put a ring of foam between it the problem is usually solved. Sound deadening helps 100% too! :)

For memory everyone has the tweeter location but I don't think every capp has factory tweeters - the wires are just there for them. I put my focal tweets there instead of the clarions.

Yes, Jay put the Pioneers in last year.

I personally wouldn't have put  'dual-concentrics' ('2-way' as you call them) in with a car with separate tweeters because then you've got 2 sets of tweeters : one set directional and one not-so.

I can here the time lagg and also a dedicated mid/bass speaker for the same price would be far better quality.
If there's then a level miss-match between the old tweeter and new mid/bass driver you have to change or add a resistor on the tweeter.
Eg. if the tweeters are far too bright then add a small resistor in series with the existing one that's on the tweeter (see pics).
Because of this it is often better to upgrade to a matched set of mid/bass+tweeter so that this is already done for you.
Like the Alpines Andy was looking at.

I have now bought a set of Alpine components so I'll let you know how they sound.

Alpines will sound great - they usually do!

The ones you were on about?
I'd be interested to hear what they're like!

Are you keeping the Clarion tweeters in, or replacing both tweeters sets?

Yep the Alpine SXS-1757s.  Found an ebay seller doing them for £49.95 delivered.  I'll try them with the Clarions first and swap them and see what the difference is.  Will also depend if the tweeters fit in the dash too.  Bought some Dynamat Xtreme to do the speaker are too.

What official size are the Clarion Tweeters?
I'd guess at 1"?
The Alpines say they are only 20mm so probably should fit, but might be loose if owt?
Only one way to find out  ;)  .

Just been on the Alpine site and there's no trace of these speakers, so they must be discontinued stock, thus the bargain.
Just cause they're not tomorrows models doesn't mean there's owt wrong with them at all!

I looked too and they list the 1750 model which seem to have a lower spec.

There's no SXS models listed at all.

It would I think have fallen under the Products/Speakers/Custom Fit Speakers.

There is, as you say, only the SXE-1750S set that is the nearest.
These are notably cheaper I see @ £35 compared to yours £50.

That's £50 delivered though.  The speakers themselves being £39.95 ;)

That's not bad at all, either way.
  :D 

Should sound NICE !

Andy - When you had the covers off the headrests, did you notice wheter or not you could screw a second seatbelt guide onto the other side - for racing harness.

There isn't a metal plate in the other side sadly.  I think the ones that are installed are welded to the posts that go into the seat back as they feel very solid in there.  These posts form a U shape sort of arrangement through the foam.  I wouldn't have thought it would be viable (as it's not impossible) to put a second bracket in there.

Well I can now say that Alpine SXS-1757 will not fit straight into the kick panel.  Can't remember which site I found their mounting depth of 51mm on but it was wrong.  They are actually 61mm and the magnet fouls the bodywork.

Sounds like you're going to have fun modifying it  ::)  .

I'm going to have to use some spacers and modify the kick panel.  Luckily I have a spare set!  I've been out with my torch ::) and it all should work. Just really annoying as going from the data I found they should have just slotted straight in.

Now how the hell do you make spacers?!  :-/

Cheated and ordered some ready made spacers so everything is back on track.  Hopefully!

Spacers are SO easy to make it isn't funny! ;D Just need a jigsaw and electric drill. Mark out a circle - the inner size of the speaker hole next to the magnet and the outer edge of the speaker (with some extra mm around it.  Cut the inner section first with a jigsaw (drill a hole big enough for the jigsaw blade to fit through first). After you have the ring, put the speaker inside and mark the speaker holes onto it. Then you just use a drill for the mounting holes...

............and all that trouble just to listen to Sporty Spice (smile)

My hands aren't steady enough to get a smooth enough circle using a jigsaw.  For the sake of £10 I wasn't prepared to mess around ;)

Getting her new album today too!  (bigsmile)

(smile) 

Hey I'm really p*ssed off! 

One of my all-time favourite bands - Wishbone Ash - was doing a gig near here recently - and I only just heard about it :(

There's still plenty of dates on the tour are any of them near enough?  Obviously not as close as the Guildhall but...

Should be easy enough to do, but would have been an even better oportunity (if you were installing concentrics which you're not) to redress the directional imbalance by making a beveled one.

ie. thinner at the drivers side and thicker at the engine side to make it point towards the inside of the cab better.

But you just went for single diaphragm main units + satalite tweeters didn't you?, so the difference in sound would be far smaller that with the concentric style.

The speakers are already turned in slightly but an angled spacer would help even further.  It would have to be very thin at the front, like on your mock up, and then very carefully measured at the rear to make sure it didn't interfere with the accelerator.

Oh, yes, s-t I forgot about the accellerator pedal - yes I remember now from looking the other day, there isn't much room if any for this mod, is there?

In fact I struggled to get one of those poppers out because the pedal mechanism was in the road.

There is a bit of room for manoeuvre but not a great deal. For it to fully work you may need to modify the kick panel as I will be doing.  Basically I will remove the end of the panel which covers the speaker area.  The metal brackets have already been trimmed in a suede effect foam so that they blend in.

I havent got to that part yet (kick panels!)

I will be cutting (relieving) the area where the speaker sits next to and making a custom grille to sit over the top of it. We're really limited in what speakers we can put in the stock locations without spacers... Any really decent speakers will need more room than what can be accomodated usually (without going to the doors).  :)

I'm just doing away with that area of kick panel completely.

I know a mounting depth of 54mm is fine which was why I was so confident that the Alpines would fit no problem as I was led to believe they were only 51mm.

54mm=~2"

That's not much is it?

I've just checked some (HiFi) 4" drivers I had to hand lying around just to give some idea of proportion and they certainly won't fit  ::) 

Luckily car drivers do tend to be shallower.

4" drivers are usually too small to reproduce all the frequencies accurately, 6" and up is the norm (Unless the 4" drver is part of a 3way component setup...). :)

Some companies have slimline drivers but they are usually a bit of a compromise.

The 4" one was just lying nearby, spare.
Bought 2 (for the garden) and got a third free.

But, yes, they are bass-light, being only 4" and all: as expected.

You really need at least 6" for any reasonable bass.

Agree - I like a small sub too although not always necessary! (I have a 8" focal sub in a sealed enclosure behind the seats). I just want my capp fixed so I can keep working on it! ;D

I have 6.5" rockford fosgates in the kick panel area with matching tweeters in the dash under the windscreen and also another pair of tweeters at the very very front of the kick panel (see pic) facing up at me.  I am also halfway through making an enclosure for two 10" subs.  I like it loud.

Two ten inch subs in a capp will be very loud! ;D Post some pics when you finish!

Andy,
I know this a while ago know, but can you give me a few more details?
Did you eventually put holes in the headrest?  Did it change the sound?  How did you put the holes in the material?
Were the speakers glued in place or just held in position by the surrounding rubber sponge? 
Did you have to cut the stitching on the cover to remove it off the headrest.
How did you manage to run the wire down the seat.  Did you have to make a small hole in the seat?
How does your two speaker installation compare to a single speaker?
So many questions.  I'm sorry.  If I'm going to hack up my headrests I want as much information as possible first.

No worries ask as many questions as you need (thumb)

I haven't punched the holes in the covers no.  Simple reason being someone pinched the tool I was going to use before I had chance to :D

The speakers are not glued at all.  I made sure the hole was actually smaller so that the sponge holds the speakers tightly.  There is also a lip of sponge covering the speaker rims.  To add to that there is some thin sticky back black foam covering the whole of the front of the headrest.  All these measures means that the speakers aren't going anywhere.  When cutting the holes you just need to make sure you do them high enough to avoid the metal that forms the mounting posts.  I just missed it when doing mine so would suggest anyone else doing it to mount them slightly higher up to be on the safe side.

The headrest covers have plastic clips holding them together so you simply undo them.  This all becomes clear when you remove the headrest.

The wires don't run through the seat at the moment but yes it would involve putting a small hole under where the headrest goes and then at the bottom to get the wire out again.  I will test all this out on my spare seats before commiting to anything though :D

Not sure how the two speaker setup compares to single as I've never heard a single setup.  The stereo setup sounds good to me though.

I did it!
I went for the single speaker in each headrest option.
It wasn't as bad of a job as I thought.  Even getting the wire through the seat was okay.
I'm glad I had an old wire coat hanger.

Yep it's straight forward really just daunting cutting into the headrest.  The hardest part for me was getting all the wiring of the speakers correct.  One speaker in each headrest would have been far simpler :D

I only cut my hand twice cutting out the foam!